charm » 14-January-2005 12:53pm

Vladimir Suchy:
This is an important coin, it was long time un-attributable, cf. #338 and somewhere should be at least another 2 specimens originally between unattributed Juchid coins. On this coin is clear name of Khidr and maybe after adjustation and rotation more could be read.

charm » 14-January-2005 5:22pm

Dear Vladimir, do you mean the name Khizr?
Image has been enlightened.

Doctor Mu » 14-January-2005 6:22pm

#7916 - 2 specimens originally between unattributed Juchid coins

charm » 14-January-2005 7:02pm

Vladimir Suchy:
Yes, there is a name of Khidr/Khizr at the top of obverse, rest of the legend I am still unable to read and # 7916 is another coin of this type.

lowvolga » 14-January-2005 11:41pm

A name "Khizr" consists of letters "Kha"+"Dhad"+'Ra". An upper word at this coin is read by letters as "Kha (or "Jim")"+"Ta"+"Ia". IMHO it is turki legend without names.

charm » 14-January-2005 11:49pm

Vladimir Suchy:
I still think there is an Arabic word Khidr/Khizr at the top line of obverse, no jím etc (there is a dot above "khá").

lowvolga » 15-January-2005 12:00am

http://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=5299 - A clear Arabic word Khidr at there!

charm » 15-January-2005 12:08am

Vladimir Suchy:
Khidr/Khizr is written almost in the same way on both coins, with a little calligraphic differences, in my opinion. And cf. ##1517 and 4721! Problem is what is written below this word...or can you offer an alternative reading of the first word?

lowvolga » 15-January-2005 12:22am

I think that it is a Turk word "JETI" - seven. "Djim + Ta + Ia"

charm » 15-January-2005 12:27am

Vladimir Suchy:
Well, maybe we can admit that the second letter could be 'tá', but the first one is 'khá', a dot is quite clear...

lowvolga » 15-January-2005 12:40am

A dots, which stays at a proper position, are a great rarity on Jujid coins.

charm » 15-January-2005 1:05am

Vladimir Suchy:
Maybe, not so rare as it seems to be. Next time I open again the question of the proper reading of the name Qúlná/Qulnah or Qúlpá.

lowvolga » 15-January-2005 1:19am

O'k! Before the opening of that discussion, please find the name Qulna in Turk, Persian or Arabic languages. And what to do with Russian historical annales ('letopisi')? There is Qulpa/Qoulpa but not Qulna.

charm » 15-January-2005 2:20am

Vladimir Suchy:
The primary source for reading the name of the mentioned khán are his coins, on all extant coins (cf. this database) is very clear and undoubtedly letter "nún", orthography differs only in Khwárizm where his name is written as Qulnah (cf. ##4854 and 7722), in other mints is Qúlná...The name cannot have necessarily some meaning, or we cannot know it at present.

lowvolga » 15-January-2005 2:29am

In the base of the name Qulpa is Arabic word "QLB" - "heart"

charm » 15-January-2005 10:18am

Vladimir Suchy:
But on the coins is always 'nún', not 'bá'.

lowvolga » 15-January-2005 6:04pm

Well, if you have a lot of trust to a dots on the Jujid dang, please, do reading a title at here: http://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=10607
and a name at here: http://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=10606

charm » 15-January-2005 6:28pm

Vladimir Suchy:
Well, on these coins (but also on Ottoman, Seljúkid of Rúm etc.) are the dots which are the integral part of certain Arabic letters (it is the case of coins with name of Qúlná) or are s.c. space-fillers or as in above mentioned case are to differentiate emissions or dies (very common on Ottoman coins of 14th-15th cent).
cf. ##10601-10604 there are 4 variants of reverse differentiated by either number of dots or a position of sign '>'.

lowvolga » 15-January-2005 8:19pm

Continuation of discussion.

AndreiSizganov » 17-January-2005 2:02pm

I have the following objections to account this pule as coin issued during the period of Khizr khan:
1. This type is found only at ancient sites, which were active in AH780-790s (according to accompanying archaeological material). No any such coin has been found in complexes of AH760s.

2. Part of known coins of that type are countermaked by the stamp 'adl', which is dated by AH790s and used on other types of dated puls of 788-791AH.

==============================================
К отнесению этого пула ко времени правления Хызр-хана у меня есть следующие возражения:
1. Встречаемость этого пула исключительно на поселениях, функционировавших, судя по сопутствующему материалу в 780-790г.х., и полное отсутствие монет этого типа в комплексах, датируемых 760-ми г.х.
2. Случаи надчеканки этих монет надчеканом "'адл", который датируется началом 790-х годов, и которым надчеканены в подавляющем большинстве случаев пулы 788-791г.х.

charm » 22-January-2005 12:38am

Region of findings - Low Volga (comment from I.Evstratov) so I'll move this type to the Low Volga category of Jujid coins.

charm » 22-January-2005 7:31am

Vladimir Suchy:
OK, I have to admit that to read the name as Khizr is a mistake, so all coins of this type should be describe uniformly and put to the same subcategory in the database ##338, 7916, 10571 and 10595.